Another Morgan on eBay that is not a proof

Wolf359

Click here

It's a business strike. The strike isn't there...there's a die chip in G of GOD (which no proof has, that reverse die never chipped out like that), rims are wrong,
obverse stars are wrong, fields are peeling away from die wear and it looks wrong....etc.

I politely emailed the seller and got this response back:
We do not agree we your opinion, sorry.

blu62vette

not even close...

RedHerring

I don't see PROOF in the listing?

braddick

<< <i>I don't see PROOF in the listing? >>



Looks like he updated and changed the listing after being emailed of his wrong doing.

lkeigwin

The listing says "strike type: business". ???

Oh, right...someone alerted him. That was fast work!

Terrible photos, BTW. Might as well be a drawing.
Lance.

chucknra

It's amazing how people can work the camera to get the exact photo they want and not the photo of the real coin!

Wolf359

<< <i>

<< <i>I don't see PROOF in the listing? >>



Looks like he updated and changed the listing after being emailed of his wrong doing. >>



Mission accomplished

coindeuce

I blasted him last night.

soty27

I dont get why you all get in a big panic about raw ebay listings. If you buy raw from ebay and get screwed its your own fault.

braddick

<< <i>I dont get why you all get in a big panic about raw ebay listings. If you buy raw from ebay and get screwed its your own fault. >>



Yes, and as there are more shootings after 2:00AM in convenient store robberies, if you want a Slurpee fix and end up shot in the back of your head, that's your own fault.

coindeuce

<< <i>I dont get why you all get in a big panic about raw ebay listings. If you buy raw from ebay and get screwed its your own fault. >>



No one here made any mention that the issue was with the coin being raw. The issue is either ignorance or deception on the part of the seller. I have seen at least one certified Morgan dollar in the past year that was offered on eBay which was designated as a Proof by a 1st tier TPG, when in fact that coin was obviously a business strike. The seller was equally as cooperative in that situation, as the coin was withdrawn from eBay. Please point out where you observed panic in the correspondence related here.

MORY

Not quite sure where you are seeing proof in this listing? I have taken a good look at the coin from the pictures that are provided. The pictures are very clear and well taken. I have been in the coin industry for about 35 years now. From what i can see, this coin is not a proof, but would certainly grade an MS64-65.

Wolf359

The cheek has been polished.

Wolf359

<< <i>

<< <i>I dont get why you all get in a big panic about raw ebay listings. If you buy raw from ebay and get screwed its your own fault. >>



Yes, and as there are more shootings after 2:00AM in convenient store robberies, if you want a Slurpee fix and end up shot in the back of your head, that's your own fault. >>



BAM! Takedown of the week!

MORY

From what i can see in the pictures, this coin has not been polished anywhere on the front or the back. An above average Uncirculated coin (MS65) which may be brilliant or lightly toned and has very few contact marks on the surface or rim. This coin contains the attributes to classify it in this category by my assessment.

Wolf359

<< <i>From what i can see in the pictures, this coin has not been polished anywhere on the front or the back. An above average Uncirculated coin (MS65) which may be brilliant or lightly toned and has very few contact marks on the surface or rim. This coin contains the attributes to classify it in this category by my assessment. >>



Mory, one would think you are the seller. The cheek is clearly polished. It's a $15 (yes, fifteen) dollar coin.

MORY

One's assumption would be wrong, because we only sell and purchase United States paper money. If i may ask, it seems that you have not a lot of information at hand or you are very new to the coin business. Rule 1 is never assume a coin is cleaned or polished until you can fully examine in person. This coin that you are viewing, has not been altered or cleaned in any manner. You would be able to see that very clearly in the pictures provided by the seller of this coin. Sorry your pricing is way off as well, as we have seen this type of coin, in this similar condition, that has sold for $750.00 Or Better at times in our store.

RWB

This coin that you are viewing, has not been altered or cleaned in any manner. You would be able to see that very clearly in the pictures provided by the seller of this coin.

Curious about how that can be determined from the item photos? What do you look for in the image?

doh

Cleaned business strike. Gross.

sf340flier

Well, the coin looks very "weird" to me. And there is even a chance it is not MS. The hair just above the ear may have some rub (would have to see it in hand), and something very unnatrural has happened to these surfaces, imo. Could be the camera/lighting, but $750 for this coin? Seems way off to me.

sf340flier

<< <i>One's assumption would be wrong, because we only sell and purchase United States paper money. If i may ask, it seems that you have not a lot of information at hand or you are very new to the coin business. Rule 1 is never assume a coin is cleaned or polished until you can fully examine in person. This coin that you are viewing, has not been altered or cleaned in any manner. You would be able to see that very clearly in the pictures provided by the seller of this coin. Sorry your pricing is way off as well, as we have seen this type of coin, in this similar condition, that has sold for $750.00 Or Better at times in our store. >>



Mory, quick question. You first state: "...we only sell and purchase United States paper money.." and end with: "have seen this type of coin, in this similar condition, that has sold for $750.00 Or Better at times in our store." So you do sell coins?

DennisH

Clearly a business strike. Polished too, I think.
Coin is not advertised as being a proof, but it is being shamefully over-hyped and misrepresented in terms of grade.

MORY

It would be hard to completely evaluate a coin and state that a coin has cleaned without examing the coin in person. The particular coin that Wolf is referring to shows no signs on the cheek area or other devices on the coin. The pictures that are given by this seller, are very clear, front and back of what i assume the actual coin looks like. If the coin was cleaned some of the devices would be worn down & possible light swirl marks would be evident by the naked eye. This applys to the front as well as the back.

MORY

Hello, it appears that you are not viewing the same coin we are discussing. The coin in this discussion is a 1889 MORGAN P. Thank You.

doh

<< <i>Rule 1 is never assume a coin is cleaned or polished until you can fully examine in person. >>


Um...no it's not. Especially not on eBay where many, many raw coins have been cleaned or polished. Rule #1 would be to assume a raw mint state coin on eBay probably isn't mint state and/or problem free.

MORY

Each half of our family runs a separate part of our business. My Brother sells and deals in Old World and US Coins. We only deal in US Paper Currency on our side. Both business are in different sections of the store. Again, this coin has not been cleaned, it appears that it has been kept and taken care of very well, which gives it that clean luster look, which may look like it was cleaned to the untrained eye. Thank You

doh

Okay, Mory, who's alt are you?

MORY

Can you repeat the question please. Your question was Who Alt you? *** Did you mean Who are you?

Wolf359

<< <i>It would be hard to completely evaluate a coin and state that a coin has cleaned without examing the coin in person. The particular coin that Wolf is referring to shows no signs on the cheek area or other devices on the coin. The pictures that are given by this seller, are very clear, front and back of what i assume the actual coin looks like. If the coin was cleaned some of the devices would be worn down & possible light swirl marks would be evident by the naked eye. This applys to the front as well as the back. >>



Give it up Mory. There's a hundred different ways a coin can be cleaned - abrasives, tools, silver polish, a rag, etc. The method here is unimportant, but the fact remains it's a cleaned dog from the photos.

MORY

You are also incorrect on the state of a coin in raw condition. We have seen many coins on Ebay in Raw state, that have sold, and are legitimate looking coins, that have not been altered or cleaned. From reading the sellers ad, it appears that the seller is just stating his opinion on the coin. You will always have different opinions on a coins condition. Please keep in mind that Grading companys, have different standards by which they determine the grade of a coin. Sorry, but is our opinion that the coin this seller is selling, has not been cleaned. The luster of the coin would not look that good if it was. The coin would almost have a wet look to it.

MORY

I think you need to give it up as well my friend, and try to do a liitle more homework on the coining industry. You are not correct on any of your assumptions.

Redglobe

Hello,

From looking at this coin I would say it has been polished,at least on the bust portion of the obverse.If you look closely around the outer edge towards the rim it looks to have a "matte" appearance or grainy look to it.The cheek area and the high points of the hair look shiny.If this coin is not polished or cleaned as you say,why would the obverse have those two distinct looks to it.

The reverse looks ok to me.

Rob

sf340flier

<< <i> Sorry, but is our opinion that the coin we are selling, has not been cleaned. >>



Fixed your post.

telephoto1

<< <i>

<< <i> Sorry, but is our opinion that the coin we are selling, has not been cleaned. >>



Fixed your post. >>



Looks like someone else finally figured out that either Mory, his "brother", or someone else he knows is the seller...

MORY

Sorry folks, but i am not the seller of this coin, just a coin dealer who noticed this post this afternoon. To reinstate what i have been trying to explain to all of the bloggers, who have inquired about this sellers coin that is listed on Ebay. The coin has not been cleaned, we have a special device that will allow us to look more closely at an item on the internet involving coins. It gives a much deeper & closer view thank what most people are viewing just from a home or office computer. Trust me when i tell you that this coin has not been cleaned. We have seen the obverse breast on this coin style and many others through the years that has appeared to have a cleaned effect to it. Being as this coin is a Business strike, which we all agree on that, the breast on almost all of these coins appear, and are more worn than a proof would be. This seller is not stating that this coin is a proof. We are also not related to the seller of this coin or a friend etc. We understand that a majority of people who sell coins are not Numismatic experts. My brother has been selling coins for 32 years or so now, & he confers as to what i am seeing in this sellers pictures. Obviously we are having a difficult time trying to make all of the bloggers who doubt this sellers coin has been cleaned, that it has not been cleaned. The easiest way to show you what a cleaned coin looks like, is to find one if you can that states it has been cleaned, & you surely see the difference, between the coin in question and a cleaned one. This will be our last post. Good luck to everyone on the site, it has been fun voicing our opinions. That is why it is such a pleasure to live in a country where we are allowed to debate each other. To the seller of this coin, if you are reading this blog, or all of the others that have been posted today, i say good luck to you. You have a very nice coin, in great condition. I may be your only supporter it seems but you can not be sure if any of these bloggers have the knowledge to make an assumption on a coin, that they themselves are not 100 percent sure about. Best Regards!

RWB

…we have a special device that will allow us to look more closely at an item on the internet involving coins. It gives a much deeper & closer view thank what most people are viewing just from a home or office computer.

Now, I'm really curious. What is the special device and where can one be bought or how is it made? Is this what helps you conclude the 1889 dollar has not been cleaned ? Could you post a photo of a cleaned Morgan dollar so I can understand better what you mean?

Thanks!

Lewy

Ditto. I am FAR more interested in this special machine than I am in the coin. Is it some sort of ultrasound device that can be attatched to our monitors or something like that? Possibly a black box that wires into the computer to dramatically increase pixel count and magnify simultaneously, sort of like a microscope for our computers?

Will we need 3-D glasses?

lkeigwin

<< <i>…we have a special device that will allow us to look more closely at an item on the internet involving coins. It gives a much deeper & closer view thank what most people are viewing just from a home or office computer.

Now, I'm really curious. What is the special device and where can one be bought or how is it made? Is this what helps you conclude the 1889 dollar has not been cleaned ? Could you post a photo of a cleaned Morgan dollar so I can understand better what you mean?

Thanks! >>

Very diplomatic, Roger.

I'm sorry to laugh but this is one of the funniest threads I've read. The bit about the special device is priceless. Lordy, my sides ache!
Lance.

soty27

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I dont get why you all get in a big panic about raw ebay listings. If you buy raw from ebay and get screwed its your own fault. >>



Yes, and as there are more shootings after 2:00AM in convenient store robberies, if you want a Slurpee fix and end up shot in the back of your head, that's your own fault. >>



BAM! Takedown of the week! >>



Haha, yeah that was a take down ROFL, lets compare a convenient store robbery and slurpiees to a listing on ebay, sure that sounds about right.

rbalderman1

Just an observation, I never saw a newcomer jump right in on the boards and start defending a seller on ebay who they have no clue is.

LOL, I would bet a dollar that MORY knows that seller.

Wolf359

<< <i>Just an observation, I never saw a newcomer jump right in on the boards and start defending a seller on ebay who they have no clue is.

LOL, I would bet a dollar that MORY knows that seller. >>



I'd bet your dollar that MORY is the seller, despite his claims.

coindeuce

A direct quote from "Mory" in his latest post above: " We have seen the obverse breast on this coin style and many others through the years that has appeared to have a cleaned effect to it."

Must be a pretty fart smeller if he can find a breast on the obverse of a Morgan Dollar.
Mory, as RWB requested, please share with us the information on this magical piece of technology that allows you to see a better image of an eBay item. And please DO READ the entire thread to understand what precipitated the original discussion. Since you obviously haven't, I'll brief you. The seller was offering this cleaned business strike as a GEM PROOF. Since the seller has already revised their listing to back away from that misinformation, would you as a reasonable person expect to believe any of the seller's other claims? Go ahead and buy it yourself, since you're so sure of the seller's credibility. I'm sure it'll be a great deal for you.

sf340flier

<< <i>...we have a special device that will allow us to look more closely at an item on the internet involving coins. It gives a much deeper & closer view thank what most people are viewing just from a home or office computer... >>



Hmm...wonder how this device overcomes a fixed amount of memory and thus resolution of a standard ebay pic? It's hard to add pixels that aren't there?

By the way (OT), to cover all bases, in case this new technology is related to "The Big One" I call dibs...HRH can send me a nice PCGS 37-D 3-legger instead of the $1000.

magikbilly

Hi there Morey,

Wow. You said "It would be hard to completely evaluate a coin and state that a coin has cleaned without examing the coin in person." and proceed to do just that, saying "The coin has not been cleaned" as if were a fact gleaned from some special devi..uh...yeah....righty-O. Even if your gizmo does what you claim, you are still dealing with a photo taken under unknown circumstances. Pick one position before you confuse yourself further.

Best,
Eric

Edited for spelling of "gizmo"

Lewy

I have always been the type that just has to have all of the newest gadgets, and when I heard about this new state of the art home magnifier that actually creates an unlimited amount of pixels wherever you need them. I just had to have one, so I went out last night and bought one.

Set up was simple, it just attaches to your monitor screen via suction cups. No wires, no awkward technical jargon in the owner's manual. It is the Acme model BS-2010 professional ultrasound model, designed especially for ebay photo interpretation. I splurged for the upgrade that includes color restoration, bare bones, blood and guts enhancement for getting under all of that luster, bag marks, dirt, etc (With optional heat and massage).

Let me tell you guys something: this machine is fantastic ! Magnification is nothing short of amazing ! I can see all sorts of crap that you guys cannot with your second rate monitors. Oh, and Wolf359....."try to do a little more homework on the coining industry. You are not correct on any of your assumptions." In the first place, when speaking of the "obverse breast", this refers to the 'eagle's' obverse breast (rather than a side view of the same). This machine will actually allow me to look at the eagle from the side as well (through the reeding if applicable).

Allow me to show all of you nay-sayers exactly what I can see in the eagle that you can't (Remember, we are focusing strictly on the eagle):




First, the eagles breast as you guys see it on your Play Skool monitors, and with your meager means of magnification:





Now, with my BS-2010 (note what 'I' can see that you can't:





Still not convinced? Let me turn up the magnification just a tad bit:





And this is for you RWB.....a cleaned eagle on your monitor, and then on mine:






Finally, here is the side view (that I spoke of earlier) of both a cleaned and an uncleaned eagle:

RWB

Poor Peter the Mint Eagle !

gonzer

I've gotta go home "sick" I'm laughing so hard. Like Flounder said in Animal House, "Isn't this great!?".

Lewy

Well gonzer, "My brother has been selling coins for 32 years or so now," (and that should qualify me as an authority as to whether or not a coin has been cleaned).
I will not put up with this uncalled for abuse any longer, so this will be my last post on this forum (well,,,,,on this thread anyway).

coinguy1

<< <i>Sorry folks, but i am not the seller of this coin, just a coin dealer who noticed this post this afternoon. To reinstate what i have been trying to explain to all of the bloggers, who have inquired about this sellers coin that is listed on Ebay. The coin has not been cleaned, we have a special device that will allow us to look more closely at an item on the internet involving coins. It gives a much deeper & closer view thank what most people are viewing just from a home or office computer. Trust me when i tell you that this coin has not been cleaned. We have seen the obverse breast on this coin style and many others through the years that has appeared to have a cleaned effect to it. Being as this coin is a Business strike, which we all agree on that, the breast on almost all of these coins appear, and are more worn than a proof would be. This seller is not stating that this coin is a proof. We are also not related to the seller of this coin or a friend etc. We understand that a majority of people who sell coins are not Numismatic experts. My brother has been selling coins for 32 years or so now, & he confers as to what i am seeing in this sellers pictures. Obviously we are having a difficult time trying to make all of the bloggers who doubt this sellers coin has been cleaned, that it has not been cleaned. The easiest way to show you what a cleaned coin looks like, is to find one if you can that states it has been cleaned, & you surely see the difference, between the coin in question and a cleaned one. This will be our last post. Good luck to everyone on the site, it has been fun voicing our opinions. That is why it is such a pleasure to live in a country where we are allowed to debate each other. To the seller of this coin, if you are reading this blog, or all of the others that have been posted today, i say good luck to you. You have a very nice coin, in great condition. I may be your only supporter it seems but you can not be sure if any of these bloggers have the knowledge to make an assumption on a coin, that they themselves are not 100 percent sure about. Best Regards! >>

Regardless of who you are - and I don't really care either way - based on the images provided, the coin appears to have been polished. Its appearance is unquestionably unnatural to many of us. And it matters not, how long your brother has been selling coins - if he knew coins, he would not agree with you that the coin hasn't been cleaned.

gonzer

<< <i>Well gonzer, "My brother has been selling coins for 32 years or so now," (and that should qualify me as an authority as to whether or not a coin has been cleaned).
I will not put up with this uncalled for abuse any longer, so this will be my last post on this forum (well,,,,,on this thread anyway). >>



Gosh Wally, you won't tell Mom will ya?

Lewy

Gee Beav, ya know she's just gonna find out anyway, and then you're really gonna get hollered at. That's just the way grown ups are.